.38 Long questions

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:34 am

Hi folks, I'm new here. I have a tired #2 in .38 Long, cast action of course. It's not collector grade and I'm a shooter so we should get along well. I want a small game/plinking rifle which, IMO, should group to 1" or less at 50 yds. The bore is shootable but it shows worn lands and some pitting. I can lap it. I've shot it using .38 SPl. cases and a breech seated round ball. The extractor needs a little work and the rim of .38 cases was a tad small so although it worked, you really had to fiddle with it to be sure the extractor didn't slip over the rim - it is sloow! I've been thinking my choices here were:

1. Get a heeled .375 mould and hopefully, after the action has been gone over and extractor fixed, it will function with standard brass. AND accuracy will suit me.

2. Rebarrel with a .357 barrel and chamber for .38 SPL/.357MAG/.357 MAX. That should cure the accuracy concerns and I'd end up with a smaller rim cut. The extractor may/may not need work.

3. Rebarrel and chamber for .32 Long/.327 Federal. Extractor would need replaced or modified. I like .32's alot.

4. Make it a .22, but I really prefer a CF.

I could line the existing barrel but there isn't that much difference in price between a TJ's liner and a barrel blank. I'd still have a nice 30" Ballard barrel that could be lined or rerifled when I was done in case a forged action comes my way. I can do the gunsmithing on any of these and already cast and have a number of molds for .30/.32's and .357. I shoot mild loads and have no desire to push a Ballard cast action.

So, who shoots a .38? Would loads be similar to .38 Spl. target loads? Am I better off with a .32 Long? Short chamber or long chamber?

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:00 pm

I've got several #2 Ballards in .38 Long, and shoot them all. As you mentioned it takes a heeled bullet to get any accurcy, as I too have tried round balls, and the rifling just doesn't spin them correctly, even in excellent bores. The ball is just too light for the twist rate.
I would never reline or rebarrel it to .38 Spl/.357, or the .357 Max! I also would never do it in the new .327 Federal, unless the barrel was marked.32 Ballard XL (extra long) as all of these cartridges are way too stout for a cast #2 action. The action will fail under those pressures, and I wouldn't want to be around when it does!
If it were mine I'd try to get it shooting in .38 Long, and if that didn't work I'd reline or rebarrel it to either .32 S&W Long, or .22 rimfire. Even the .32 S&W is pushing it, but if you stay with light loads it will be fine.
I've also got several Ballards in .32 Long, and although it too takes a special bullet, it's one of my favorites! Very accurate with the correct load, and sure cheap to shoot if you cast and reload. I actually prefer the .32 Long to the .38 Long, as my Ballards shoot better in the .32 Long vs. the .38 Long.
You might also consider going a bit larger than the .38 Long. The #2 was also made in .44 Ballard, which was a heeled bullet also, but you could have it bored and chambered to .44 Spl. if you shot either blackpowder loads, or extremely light smokeless loads. I also own a #2 in .44 Ballard, and it's a lot of fun with blackpowder. They made hem in .44-40 too, but I'd steer clear of chambering it in that. Too much factory ammo around that could someday end up in it, and blow it up.-Vall

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:02 pm

Thanks for the insight. Although I might chamber for .327 or .357 Max I'd surely never fire factory or heavier loads in that chamber. I recall seeing some pressure testing with .38 Spl. target loads that compared pressure vs. seating depth of the bullet. Deep seated wadcutters increased pressure drastically as opposed to shallow seated. My thinking was a little extra case capacity should help keep pressures low. Too much case capacity is no good either. I like mild "popgun" loads, especially quiet ones that don't upset the livestock or yuppie neighbors. I should wring out the existing barrel first, it may prove accurate enough for my needs. Any suggestions for a heeled .375 mold or a source for cast bullets? It would be great to be able to buy a couple hundred to find out whether the existing barrel will work out. I'm a little hesitant to buy a custom mold for a worn barrel. I spent a small fortune in $$ and waiting time for a mold for my Union Hill rifle which had been freshed out to .331. I'm still not real happy but may try a custom mold from Darr and Borton. I'd have been time and $$ ahead if I had fitted a new barrel of proper size, chambered for .32-40 and used molds I already had. The original barrel could always be put back on when the day comes that I have no use for that (or any) rifle anymore. I do enjoy making original rifles shoot though. If I rebarrel this #2, it will almost certainly be to .32 with a .311 barrel. I really enjoy my little Sav. 23 .32-20 and I think a Ballard in .32 Long would be a perfect rifle to take for a walk, especially if the barrel contour was something between that of the Gallery rifles and the standard #2. I had thought (briefly) about reboring to .44. It should be fun to shoot but maybe a little big for a small game cartridge! I'll have to try to take and post some pics of my "Heinz 57" Ballard, a .22 (liner) in a Rigby barrel. It's a nice rifle and a good shooter. Shame someone pulled down a Rigby barreled rifle ....

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:48 pm

My concern about chambering isn't for the guy who does it originally. It's down the road a ways when some novice getsa it, and just drops a factory round into the chamber.
I'm picking up another Ballard tomorrow in .44-40 on a #2 action. Factory original, and supposed to still be a good shooter. I doubt I'll shoot it much, except with blackpowder loads.
I've also got a #2 in .32-20, and always felt uncomfortable shooting factory loads in it. This was a late special order caliber for Ballards, and I can't imagine it holding up long to full power .32-20 loads! It's a double set trigger #2, so I don't want to hurt it. I shoot really light loads in it.
I have a friend who has a 6 1/2 Rigby Ballard that has had the barrel swapped. I always thought it was a shame the barrel got away from it! I'm sure that a lot of nice Ballards got rebarreled. I've sure seen a lot. Of course gunsmiths like Pope, Schoyen and Zischang didn't think twce about pulling a factory barrel off a nice Ballard. Maybe a few of those were Rigby barrels!

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:44 am

It's always a concern with older rifles and someone firing a higher pressure round than the action will handle safely. I suspect it's happened in the past with the .32's and .38's already with someone shooting .32 H&R or .38 Spl/357 magnum because they fit. For that matter .375 Win drops right in a .38-55 chamber and as you mentioned, factory .44-40 or .32-20 isn't a good idea in a Ballard chambered for it. There is a responsibility in using these old rifles - we as knowledgable shooters accept that if we are to use these rifles. Though I'm concerned for others who may unknowingly fire these rifles with ammunition that isn't safe to use in them, they have a responsibility too - just like walking on thin ice or driving too fast. Whether we chamber a barrel for these rifles with a reamer designated for a more modern round, like .357 Magnum or just use them with the factory chambers, it's easy to load to pressures too high for the action. Probably a good idea to mark a new barrel with the old chamber designation, such as .32 or .38 long, even though a reamer marked .32 H&R or .357 magnum might be used to cut that new chamber. It still won't stop someone from shooting it with the wrong ammo. We hear stories of the wrong ammo causing a gun to fail. many times the injuries are minimal. I guess God looks after children and fools...

What do you use for a bullet in your .38 Longs?

Jim D · Post by **Jim D** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:46 pm

I'm with MM93 on this. That rifle will pass through many hands after it leaves yours. If a shell goes in the chamber, someone will try it. No sense in giving natural selection a helping hand....

-jim

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:29 pm

I use an oiginal Ideal tong tool mold to cast my bullets. It's marked ".38 Ballard", and casts a bullet that weighs around 140 grains in pure lead. The bullet measures .376" at it's forward point, and .356" inside the case at the heeled portion.

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:50 am

It looks like NEI makes a mold for a heeled .375. I have a spare LEE wadcutter mold. A good snow day job would be to make a cherry to open that wadcutter mold up to make a heeled bullet.

It's kind of a double edged sword, these XL chambers. It's easy for us to get these rifles shooting again. My friends' 38 XL easily chambers .357 Max brass and that is what will be used to load for it when I have a proper mold. As a matter of fact, the XL chamber cast indicates that it IS a .357 Max. with a different name. Mighty handy. My .38 Long will chamber the Long Colt but not quite the Spl cartridge. I hear some .32 XL will chamber the .32 H&R but don't have one so I can't say first-hand. As Vall pointed out, his factory chambered .44-40 and .32-20 are best not used with factory loaded ammunition. Point is, there is inappropriate factory ammunition out there that will fit these old rifles whether the chamber was cut 130 years ago or last week. Nothing you or I can do will stop someone from using the wrong ammo. Information is easy to come by, now more than ever. For those that won't bother to find out what they are shooting, are we to stamp a safety message on the barrel? Think they would read it? Weld up the chamber so some idiot can't shoot it? I'm glad no one did that to any of my rifles trying to protect someone from getting hurt. I think we just need to assume responsibility for our own actions.

Jim D · Post by **Jim D** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:46 am

Antietamgw,

Of course you are quite right. A person does need to take personal responsibility when shooting an antique rifle. But I can hear the attorney
now.... "Sir, did you in fact rebarrel and chamber the rifle in question? And what did the chambering reamer say on it for a caliber designation?"

Unfortunately sanity and personal responsibility are concepts too often not considered in the courtroom. That's why I won't color case harden a gun for someone else. Anything that I restore won't be sold until I'm dead and safely in the ground.

-jim

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:30 pm

Antietamgw,
I've fired .357" hollowbase wadcutters in my .38 Long, and they worked quite well! The hollow base allows them to bump up and fill the bore, so they grab the rifling and seal. Thy shot good groups in my .38 Long #2.
I tried them with both smokeless and BP, and both did a decent job, so either way you prefer to load they can be used. That's one way to keep it all on the reasonable way, and not have to spend any money, as you probably already have HB wadcutters, and a set of .38/.357 dies.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:36 pm

Almost forgot; the .32 Ballard XL is longer than the .32 H&R mag, so all .32 XL's will chamber .32 H&R brass. The new .327 Federal is so close to being a perfect match for the .32 XL, that I'd guess they copied the case dimensions!
I was using .32 H&R brass to relaod for my .32 XL, but I will be switching to the .327 as soon as brass is available.
There's really nothing new in cartridge developement any more. The .357 Max. was just a hot version of the .38XL, and the .327 Federal is just a new version of the .32 XL. Still, I wouldn't fire either factory loading in my Ballards!

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:09 pm

Ah, the lawyers.... Can't forget them - a good point. I had my fill of them (and developers) when my farm became surrounded by subdivisions. I tend to keep my projects too and will just keep using them until I'm looking up at dirt instead of working it. I've not yet case color hardened any receivers. I'd like to someday and will probably use some scrap and a #4 Rolling Block receiver to practice on. Scares the stuffin' out of me to drop a hot reciever in cold water.

I will try the hollow base wadcutters, I think I do have some tucked away somewhere... I've been using a RNFP for almost all of my .38 shooting in rifle and pistol and haven't fooled with full wadcutters in years. I'd like to get this old gal shooting again, there are cans out back that need some holes in them. I'd be tickled if a nice .32 barrel found me.

Jim D · Post by **Jim D** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:32 pm

Antietamgw,

Droping a red hot receiver in ice cold water isn't as bad as it sounds. As long as you keep your temperatures down to 1350F for carburizing and under 1200F for quenching you will be alright. That's for low alloy steel with Carbon under 20 points. I have a post on this board under lever actions on color case hardening with all the nitty gritty details. Have fun!

-jim

Antietamgw · Post by **Antietamgw** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:52 am

Jim D, I checked out the thread on case color hardening - WOW, looks like you really have it worked out. Your work is very impressive. I've been keeping my eye open for a furnace for some time. I have access to one but no place to quench the work so I'll just have to find my own. When I get closer to being set up I'd like to pick your brain with some questions.

I spent a little quality time altering a Lee mold to make a heeled .38 bullet. It got late and I didn't get a chance to cast much with it but I think it might work out fine. Time to make up some new screws for the #2 and get her back in shape. If anyone has a pic of a bullet dropped from an original mold I'd sure like to see it. Thanks for all the info and pointers.

Jim D · Post by **Jim D** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:57 am

Antietamgw,

Be happy to help in any way I can. Good luck!

-jim