Engraved Model1867 Ballard

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marlinman93
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:40 am

My experience has been that I always got way less for pre Marlin Ballards than post era. Even some very nice ones with lots of finish and case colors had trouble breaking $1,000. Never had an engraved presentation pre Marlin though, so I would assume they would get a lot more, just not nearly that much. I seriously would be shocked if he gets offers over half his asking price in Vegas.
If the people involved in the presentation were highly recogniseable the values would most certainly go up. If the seller wanted to maximise his value he'd do the legwork and gather as much documentation as possible to increase the value. When I got the #3 pictured it closed at an online auction for $800 with no other bidders. I got it for opening bid. I spent a long time documenting it's history, and the career of Gen. Charles Phillips, and that will add to the gun's value if I ever sold it.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:29 pm

Picked up John T. Dutcher's book on The Ballard last week. It is an excellent book and very complete. :D
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:26 pm

I never have my copy very far away! If I'm just relaxing, I often pick it up and peruse it again. I can't guess how many times I've read or re-read it, and still find things I missed or forgot. It's just a great gun book!
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:06 am

I have researched that deluxe engraved Ballard and it would appear to be the only known example of a deluxe Ballard of that model to be found. That being said it makes it extremely rare and desirable. The condition appears to be unfired, like new. Further it has a very interesting history attached to it which makes it even more intriguing and certainly adds undetermined value. One-of-a-kind items in excellent condition could command a very substantial premium. There is little if anything to compare it to. As to the gentleman that owns this fine firearm I understand he is a very knowledgeable collector of other fine firearms for many years. I have good reliable information that "he doesn't smoke anything". Great rare piece would definitely be a very fine addition to any Marlins/Ballard collectors ,collection.

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:58 pm

Antiquer wrote:I have researched that deluxe engraved Ballard and it would appear to be the only known example of a deluxe Ballard of that model to be found. That being said it makes it extremely rare and desirable. The condition appears to be unfired, like new. Further it has a very interesting history attached to it which makes it even more intriguing and certainly adds undetermined value. One-of-a-kind items in excellent condition could command a very substantial premium. There is little if anything to compare it to. As to the gentleman that owns this fine firearm I understand he is a very knowledgeable collector of other fine firearms for many years. I have good reliable information that "he doesn't smoke anything". Great rare piece would definitely be a very fine addition to any Marlins/Ballard collectors ,collection.
All true, but with that said, the market will be determined when it actually sells. And if the seller is at $25k I doubt that will be anytime soon. As I mentioned previously, a pre Marlin Ballard just wont get that kind of money. Even if it's the only one seen so far.
Undetermined value, and substantial premium included; a pre Marlin Ballard will rarely break $2500 in nice condition. I seriously doubt the engraving, presentation wood, and plaque, will bring the premium up 10x what a std. pre Marlin Ballard would get. That's more than most high end Marlin Ballards go for in similar condition.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:44 pm

I would agree with part of your assessment however,I respectfully disagree with some of it. I think the to right collector (with the means), who enjoys owning something no one else has , may very well step up to the plate ?? The value for any item that is a one of a kind , anything , has not been established , so very diffcult to say what the price should be?? One only has to watch two determine guys wanting the same item at auction . Add to that the historical mystery of why Captain Duncan Milloy presented such an extravagant gift to his first officer and it becomes more intriguing to a history buff. Price aside its a very cool, minty, deluxe rifle.

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:38 am

Antiquer wrote:I would agree with part of your assessment however,I respectfully disagree with some of it. I think the to right collector (with the means), who enjoys owning something no one else has , may very well step up to the plate ?? The value for any item that is a one of a kind , anything , has not been established , so very diffcult to say what the price should be?? One only has to watch two determine guys wanting the same item at auction . Add to that the historical mystery of why Captain Duncan Milloy presented such an extravagant gift to his first officer and it becomes more intriguing to a history buff. Price aside its a very cool, minty, deluxe rifle.
Again I agree with your statement, but it's still speculative. I can tell you from 30+ years of buying and selling Ballards and Marlins in general that occasionally I've sent one to auction that went silly high when the dust settled. But that doesn't mean that was the value of the gun, it means just what you pointed out; that two guys got caught up in auction frenzy.
If you really want to see what your gun will bring in the real market, then send it off to one of the big auction companies and see the result when the bidding ends. There's no question as to the gun's condition, and the features, but the end result will tell if your guesstimate of $25k will hold up. I will go out on a limb and guess it wont hit half that amount. I'm not trying to put your gun down, as it's a wonderful specimen; just being realistic. I hope you'll come back when it sells and show me I'm wrong, for your benefit!
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:37 pm

It would appear that we have some things in common . I too have been involved for many years in marketing fine collectibles , a number of which were rare firearms. I do not claim to he an expert on Marlins or Ballards . I particularly like fine firearms and collectables with an interesting history , which puts them in a class of their own. Much like the very fine number three Ballard that you own and mentioned . It has a very interesting history to the officer who attended West Point and ultimately retired as a General , cool history , nice gun. As to selling a gun at auction I done that but much prefer to deal directly with the specialized collector . Placing a value on fine guns with an interesting history is very subjective and almost impossible to accurately do. I'm sure you would agree. Its way easier to come up with an approximate value on a particular firearm without any historical significance. I suspect from a historical point of view this gun would most likely appeal to a Canadian/Toronto gun collector. In fact there is a Canadian gentleman who lives in the Toronto area that has shown interest he had seen it and likes both history and rare guns. I am not in any big hurry to sell, however. In fact I prefer to trade , occasionally. I've discovered over the many years of marketing for a living that a fair price (of anything) is usually determined by what a motivated buyer and a willing Seller can agree on. I resect your knowledge of Marlins and Ballards and thank you for your opinion. I will gladly keep you posted.

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:18 pm

Gentlemen;

Just received my June, 2013 issue of "MAN AT ARMS". There is an article (very brief article) about this Ballard rifle. It is very obvious that the author is trying to "hype" this Ballard in order to sell it at a high price. The first paragraph tells the tale:

"This deluxe dual-ignition Ballard is an intersting rifle, both mechanically and historically. Extensive research seems to indicate that ithis rifle is one of very few "deluxe" examples of its model. This alone makes it relatively rare and desirable to Ballard collectors, single-shot rifle collectors and perhaps history buffs as well.

Now from what I read in this brief article, this is no extensive research on the history of this gun, otherwise we would know far more about the situation surrounding the presentation of the gun. Generally, who presented the gun is not so important as to why or who was presented such an item. The author states that "One can only speculate." as to the presentation. Historically, that is the important factor here. Captain Milloy is not a military hero or anyone of military importance nor of political importance himself. Knowing someone of political importance does not count either. He was a paddle wheel boat driver tht made some money in the shipping business.
The author also states about the gun, "that is very nicely engraved in the style similar to that of L.D. Nimschke." Those that know Nimschke's work will easily recognize it is not engraved by Louis Daniel Nimschke. Again, trying to "hype" the value by trying to indicate that this gun was engraved by a noted engraver, when it is in fact, not all that similar to Nimschke engraving, when actually compared to engraving by the master L.D.N.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:48 am

Greetings "Mr. gunrunner" I noticed your recent comments on the Man at Arms magazine article regarding the engraved Ballard rifle. Firstly I'd like to say that Man at Arms magazine is perhaps the most respected vintage firearms magazine on the market as you must agree because you are a current subscriber. I find it rather absurd that you would think that Mr. Stuart Mowbray the editor and publisher of Man at Arms magazine would agree to do a featured article just to help anyone "Hype" their gun in order to sell it for a higher price. I have a feeling that he may find this a bit insulting and I assure you that I did not pay Mr. Mowbray any money to publish or feature this gun in his magazine. I am told that Mr. Mowbray reviews many fine firearms and chooses only the ones he feels are worthy to publish. I was asked at one time by a known Marlin Ballard collector if I would sell it and how much it would be. I briefly considered it at that time But I had no idea as to what it's value may be so I suggested a "not interested price" for a short time. Further if you re-read the article you will notice that there is no mention anywhere that this gun is or ever was for sale at any price. I might add that it is not for sale and I am happy to have it in my personal collection . Secondly you mentioned that there is no there was no extensive research on the history of this gun. That seems like an unusual comment from you considering you were personally involved in some of the rifle research (refer to your comments on this forum on October 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM). It was in response to Road King's request for member assistance to help identify this gun. From the historical standpoint I would agree with you that Capt. Malloy and his First Officer A. McMillan (who was the recipient of this fine firearm as seen on the silver escutcheon inlaid on the butt stock and shown on the pictures still posted on this forum). Yes I must agree with you, they were they were not the founding Fathers of Canada or a famous military General however they were amongst some of the first pioneer – businessman to settle in the country's largest city when Canada first became a country in 1867. Further the historical record shows that Capt. Duncan Milloy was known to be good friends with the first Canadian Prime Minister as well. While you may find this trivial and boring some Canadian collectors might find it rather interesting . Incidentally he did not just "drive a paddlewheel boat" he designed and built a very successful steamship company and was highly respected in his day. He also Captained the ships as well.
When the article stated that one can only speculate why this firearm was given it was because as stated on the escutcheon he gave it "in esteem". Which could mean any reason perhaps he save the ship in a storm or who knows why as to the fine engraving on this Ballard. A fellow collector thought it resembled the style of Nimschke. It clearly is not Nimschke nor was it ever purported to be Nimschke in order to "Hype" this gun. Lastly in closing I find it very unusual and ironic that someone who is supposed to be passionate about collecting Marlin/Ballards that you would not be thrilled to have a Ballad featured in such a high-profiled magazine such as Man at Arms. Instead you choose to personally attack the motives of others involved with this article .......very strange indeed.

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Bear 45/70 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:48 am

Sounds like Antiquer wrote the article.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:58 pm

Oh Gerald, where to start...! Stuart Mobray inherited the magazine from his father, Andrew who was the publisher when I started subscribing to the magazine. Now, I suspect that Stuart offered to make your Ballard the gun in the "Roll of Honor" page since it is an interesting gun, but that does not fit into your agenda. Guns picutred in the "Roll of Honor" must be accompanied by a statement that the gun featured will not be offered for sale for at least one year, therefore, it became a brief article in the magazine. And no, people do not pay Mobray to have their articles published. They have their articles published to share information, of which there was very little in your article.
The gun must have been for sale at some point (even though not mentioned it being for sale in the article as you say) but when the price was stated here to be way overpriced, you came here to rescue it and defend your extravagant price when several others mentioned that non-Marlin Ballards do not command Marlin Ballard prices. The very first paragraph of your article in the magazine shows you are trying to promote it as a very valuable gun and generate some interest in it. If you were trying to sell the gun there, then you would have had to pay for an AD, and a two page ad like that would be very expensive.
The mention of engraving in the style of L. D. Nimschke as the engraver is an attempt to generate interest to someone that is suspectible to such offerings in the possibility that it is a Nimschke engraved gun, which would add value to it if it were engraved by L.D.N.
The fact that Capt. Milloy "knew" someone of importance means nothing to this gun or it's provonance. Canada was settled long before 1867, so the people mentioned had nothing to do with establishing the country. They were businessmen and politicians that came along later. Neither Milloy or McMillan were military heroes or famous politicians. There needs to be a complete history of BOTH individuals be make history of the gun important. Without that, it is a pretty gun with some interesting history, although incomplete, which will add something to the value, but nothing like what you think for a non-Marlin Ballard. There are a number of deluxe, engraved non-Marlin Ballards pictured in John Dutcher's book.
My background with Marlins speaks for itself. Those who know me, know I will speak out when necessary regardless of which side of an issue I come down on. I will not allow incorrect statements go unchallenged nor will I let anyone be "taken", wheither it be by a fake gun or by an item that is over evaluated. If they choose not to listen to me, then so be it. I did what I had to do to try and protect them.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:54 pm

Greetings once again Regnier. I am not sure what part of "not for sale" you do not understand. I am very happy to own this fine firearm and even happier that Man at Arms considers it interesting enough to place in the Role of Honor page. It is indeed an honor for any collector to have one their firearms featured here. Also, I might add that Stuart Mowbray did not mentioned any statement regarding the time frame in which my gun may not be sold. However having said that I would have absolutely no objection to signing one of these forms anytime he would like to send one to me. That said I guess I'm not doing a very good job at promoting my "Secret Agenda". There goes that theory....... You may be reading too many conspiracy theory books ???
This rifle has had many pictures posted on your form in an effort to obtain more information. A request was made by "Road King" (who happens to be a very knowledgeable and friendly Marlin/Ballard collector) He asked any of your members to try and locate info or another dual ignition deluxe Ballard the same as this one. So far after 6 months, 26 postings and 700 viewings I have not seen another. One could naturally assume then that this may be a rare deluxe variation of that rifle. Perhaps with your experience you could find another one and post it online.
I find it very telling by your comments as to what you think makes a firearm collectible, interesting or historically significant that everything must be judged by your exclusive standards . Have you ever considered that other collectors may find them interesting for their own personal and different reasons than yours. You may not have any interest in German guns or history but German people and others probably do. Does this make them less valid?? The very same goes with a fine gun that has an interesting Canadian history it may not appeal to you or others and that is understandable but it may surprise you that it could well appeal to a Canadian collector. I could go on to discuss the remainder of your latest commentary but clearly you have your own biased opinion. fortunately others are entitled to theirs as well. Have a great day.

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Gerald;

Your Ballard did NOT make the "Roll of Honor" section of "Man At Arms" magazine, you completely misunderstood what I said about that. That honor, for this issue was given to an engraved Remington Pocket pistol revolver of known provonance.
You want to see other, engraved, deluxe, non-Marliln Ballards, pick up a copy of John Dutcher's book "Ballard, the Great American Single Shot Rifle."
I consider many thngs that make a particular firearm collectable. Condition, scarcity, engraving, ownership, it's use, the manufacturer, are just a few things to consider. I consider some near relic guns to be very collectable if the provonace is there. I do not care what other people collect if they like it, that is their business.
Like I said, when I see mis-statements being made, I will not remain silent.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Antiquer » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:53 pm

Yes Regnier I stand corrected . I have not seen a copy of the magazine yet myself . I am pleased however to have it in the fine magazine anywhere even if it is not in the role of honor section . Just to have my firearm featured period is great. Your previous statement is making more sense to me now that I have reread what you had to say. It's clear now that you were attempting to validate your Secret Agenda Theory when you stated that you suspect that Stewart offered to make my Ballard the gun in the role of honor. But it was not there because I would not sign a No sale agreement. This is a unfounded, ludicrous statement and perhaps if you would like to see if I'm telling the truth I welcome you to give Stuart a call and ask him if I declined to sign anything. That is simply not true.
I have been collecting firearms for 40 years I attend a number of the large shows including recently Las Vegas in January and Baltimore in March. Over this period of time I have met countless friendly collectors of various types and makes and models of firearms. I must say though I don't think I have ever encountered anyone, that I never met previously who is as mean-spirited as yourself. I'm now beginning to wonder whether there may be a touch of envy involved ????

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