Engraved Model1867 Ballard

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Road King
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Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:38 am

Anyone seen any engraved Ballard Model 1867 with dual ignition in 44 cal for sale lately or may have sold at a recent aution :?: Trying to establish a fair price to offer for one in high condition with deluxe wood and checked stocks.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:23 am

Brian;

Check the auction results from Rock Island Auction Company from when they sold the John Dutcher collection. I believe it was September of 2009, but I cannot say for sure. I do not have the catalog, so I cannot be of help on any lot numbers.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:49 pm

I've checked my catalogs and don't have ones from around that time either, maybe someone else reading this post may have the catalog and check for me :)
I didn't realize hat that Mr. Dutcher had put out a book on the Ballards. :oops: Any comments on this book, I'll likely order it as a reference.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:21 pm

Brian;

As to John Dutcher's book, all, and I mean ALL books should be written that way. John spent 20 years putting it together and it is the end product of end products. That said, John is a friend of mine, and I actually got the first book he sold when it came out. We had the Association meeting in Kansas City, and the book came out at meeting time. John had the publisher deliver several cases of books directly to the show. I helped him bring them into the show and when he uncased the first book, I took it from him and had him sign it, then paid for it. It is by far, one of my favorite books.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:39 pm

Regnier (gunrunner) wrote:Brian;

As to John Dutcher's book, all, and I mean ALL books should be written that way. John spent 20 years putting it together and it is the end product of end products. That said, John is a friend of mine, and I actually got the first book he sold when it came out. We had the Association meeting in Kansas City, and the book came out at meeting time. John had the publisher deliver several cases of books directly to the show. I helped him bring them into the show and when he uncased the first book, I took it from him and had him sign it, then paid for it. It is by far, one of my favorite books.
Good enough endorsement for me, going to order one tonight. Like guns, you can never have to many books.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:19 pm

Brian;

Let me know what you think of the book when you get it........
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard *Photos Added*

Post by Road King » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:24 pm

Here are some photos of the Ballard that I'm looking at. Comments welcomed. :D
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:30 pm

Brian;

I looked to see if that Ballard was pictured in Dutcher's book, but it is not there. A very nice example that will be fun to research with that engraved plaque in the side of the buttstock. Hope it leads somewhere of interest.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:43 pm

Here is a photo of the inscription . Cpt. Duncan Milloy was a captian aboard the side wheeler "City of Toronto" that steamed out of Toronto Canada in 1860s.

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Was there any rifles similar to this gun in Dutcher's book? Really having a hard time to establish a price on this gun with nothing to really base my offer on it. Owner will not put a price on it but wants to sell.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Regnier (gunrunner) » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Brian;

There are some early, engraved Ballards in John's book, but none were exactly like this one. Mostly difference in engraving. I do know that for the most part, the pre-Marlin Ballards do not bring as much as the Marlin Ballards do. Although, this one is special with that plaque in the stock.
The history of that Ballard you are looking at is very interesting. There should be lots of information and history there to research and help the value of that gun. The overall condition is pretty nice too. The engraving is better quality than most of the guns in John's book. In a way, it is kinda a crap shoot when the owner will not put a price on something. You could offer him a very fair price, and he might turn around and think you are trying to steal it. I usually refuse to make offers as the owner might be out to peddle your bid to the next guy that will offer $50.00 more and then you lose out. Best find out if there are others interested in making offers and go from there.
Good luck!!
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:53 am

Based on the photos and research on this gun is actually a model 1864 Sporting Rifle made by Merwin and Bray.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:49 pm

There were no Model 1867, nor a Model 1864 Ballard sporting rifles. And Merwin and Bray never built any Ballards. Merwin and Bray held the patent rights to Ballards that they purchased from Charles Ballard early on, and were listed as agents for Ballard sales. Numerous manufacturers built Ballards for Merwin and Bray, and if your gun was actually built in 1864, then it was most likely built for them by Dwight Chapin and Co. in 1863, or later by R. Ball in 1865. Chapin finished his contract in May of 1863, and got a 3 month extension to build more, but none were built in 1864 as far as I know. They may have been sold by M&B in 1864, but were built earlier.
Ballard under all makers usually didn't list their firearms by the year they were made, unlike later Marlin repeating rifles that always were assigned a model by the year they were introduced. Ballards got assigned names or numbers, but not based on year of presentation.
Perusing John Dutcher's book, I don't see anything similar in engraving to what is on the Ballard you pictured. Your's looks more like later Marlin Ballard engraving, and appears to be very much a professional job. Might possibly be that it was a production Ballard that was engraved and the presentation emblem added after it left the factory also.
I would also highly reccommend John Dutcher's book on Ballards! I've shown my copy to numerous people who never collected Ballards, and they bought a copy, and some even started buying Ballards after seeing his book! It's one of the finest gun books ever written on any gun maker! I got my copy at the same MFCA meeting July 26, 2002 also, and John was kind enough to autograph and date it, or I wouldn't trust my memory to know when I got it!
Marlin lever actions 1870's-WWI, Ballards, and single shot rifles!

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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:49 pm

Marlinman93 thanks very much for the information. I was only basing my id to the gun on what I had read in a few books that I have including Bill West's book, Flayderman's and Ballard Rifles in the Henry J. Nunnemacher Collection by Eldon G. Wolff (1961) I am heading to Arizona in a week and will pick up the Dutcher book when I get there. Should make for great winter reading. I have a few Ballards rifles in my collection but only J.M. Marlin marked ones. I didn't buy this engraved Ballard when the guy finally put a price on it ..$25K :shock: & :o
I know the ship that this Captian Milloy was Skipper on was launched 20 April 1864 , so I assumed it was likely given to the 1st Mate after that . The Captain Milloy died in 1871.
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by marlinman93 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:49 am

Sounds like someone is smoking something really good! $25k is probably a bit high for the gun mentioned, and I too would pass. I love Ballards, and I also love guns with provenance or "gifted" guns with names or plaques on them. It's the history, and such about owners that only a gifted gun with a name on it can truly provide. Most the time we never know who owned a gun a hundred years later, so being able to research a gun's histroy of ownership by the name on it is exciting to me.
I've got a Marlin Ballard #3 Gallery that was a gift to a Lt. Charles Phillips from his men in the late 1800's. I was able to research and find Lt. Phillips military records from a West Point cadet, to his eventual rank of General in the US Army, and finally retirement. I also found the 2nd owner, and now have the gun's history from the day it was born until today. Pretty cool to know everything about a particular gun and it's owners!
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Re: Engraved Model1867 Ballard

Post by Road King » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:35 pm

marlinman93 that is a nice Marlin Ballard you have and I agree about being able to have the history of the gun is very nice. I'm sure with a little bit time and effort the history of the Ballard that I was looking at would have an interesting background. But $25K for a non J.M. Marlin marked gun is a little to much for me also. I showed the seller auction results from about the past 10 years of a great many Ballards but he is convinced that there is a high end Ballard collector out there that will pay the price with a smile. Lastest word is he will be taking it to the Vegas Show this January and make his fortune.
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