Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

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Gunacologist
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Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

I am trying to put together updated pages to my Brownells obsolete gun parts book. In drawing all the 1894 parts, I have come up with 2 different type of carrier springs. Hope you experts here can clarify things for me on this issue as once it is put to print, (right or wrong) it seems to be the gosphel.

I do not currently have a large caliber carrier in my hads as yet, but the normal carrier rocker spring that I see in both the 1889 & the 1894 is the single loop coil that fits into a recess in the rocker & when the rocker is inserted into the carrier, it just puts slight tension against the two.

I have found another carrier assembly in the scrap box that has been modified in previous efforts to function as a 357 (so I do not know which caliber it was origially). It has a .025 wire tension armed spring that the short "L" tail is staked into a hole in the back side of the carrier. This spring runs alongside of & forward about 5/8" of the rocker & the tail bears tension into the rocker in a shallow slot. Apparently the slot is to keep the tail in position.

I can not find anything in Brophy's book about this. I am assuming that this tension type spring is a later version, but what caliber(if aplicable) & or when did it come into being? Any thoughts?

LeeRoy Wisner
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marlinman93
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by marlinman93 »

I'm a little puzzled, as the rocker spring I'm familiar with in all Marlin centerfires pre 1936 is a flat L shaped spring that looks much like the rear firing pin spring on the same models. Haven't seen any "single loop coil springs" on an early Marlin?
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

I have a 1889 32-20 s/n 45,71X & a 1894 25-20 s/n 143,84X that both have the single coil loop spring inset into a shallow recess in the top of carrier rocker. My limited experience of these guns led me to believe this was standard. I can see where the one you described would probably function more reliably than either of the two that I am looking at.

Now you have thrown me a curve in that there appears to have been 3, (maybe more) different carrier rocker springs. Where does your version anchor in the carrier?

I see you are in Portland, maybe we can get together sometime as I am about 80 miles north.
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

OK, I just looked in a 1905 Marlin catalog & I see the rocker spring you describe that is insered into the rocker itself kind of like the extractor springs of the same guns. However the 1897 catalogs do not even list a spring.
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marlinman93
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by marlinman93 »

Yes, the flat L shaped spring sits under the rocker and is simply held in by the rocker when it's pinned in place. I am puzzled by the coil spring, and if it was just one, I'd think it was someopne's repair, but since you have two I just don't know what to say.
80 miles north? Must be around Winlock or Onalaska?
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

My coil spring types are factory I am sure as there is no indication they have ever been out of the carriers.

The single coil carrier rocker spring was also found in a 38-40 carrier by Larry at LARC. I also talked to Dave Woods Saturday & he was was not aware of the 2 other types that I have, but he is at 91/92/97/39 & 93 man. He did say that they experimented trying to improve things & that may explain the 2nd type tension spring. I did find an illustrated "New Style" carrier rocker & your type spring in Jack First's catalog listing under a model 1887, but the picture has to be from a later 1894 catalog than the 2 early ones I have.

Dave also said that all the carriers were the same & interchangable for the centerfires. Not so, as the 1889 / 1894 needs a shorter rocker than the 1893.

The later carriers have to be wider like the 1893s to allow the shelf on the RH side for the spring to bear against. This style also gives a better rocker stop than my early types. I have compared mine & have made a composite drawing of about what the new style has to be by using the 1893 carrier back half & the front half of the 1894. The rockers themselves also need to be shorter than the 1893, but with the improvements.

Dave also said that the original 94 carriers were made with 2 different radius for the feed shelf, but that they found that the 44-40 carrier would work for both large & small calibers, so you could find either until they finally ran out of the small ones.

As for the 1893 38-55 carriers, Larry said all the early 38-55 carriers he has seen were flat on the feed shelf with no side lips.

I am having a time trying to find anyone who has any real experience with the 1894 internals.

Boy this has been an experience, & there are probably a few more supprised coming up that I am not aware of yet.

Your location was close, try Chehalis & west 7 miles to Adna.
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Leverdude »

None of my 1889's have any spring & neither does my only old 1894.
They all have the same carrier/rocker setup where the back is wide open, I dont see how or where a spring would sit. My newer 94's are very similar looking to a short 336 lifter & have a spring.
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marlinman93
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by marlinman93 »

Of course this stuff drives me crazy, and being the curious type I just can't stand not having an answer, so I spent an entire evening taking Marlins apart. (thanks!???)
After disassembling six 1894's, three 1889's, I came to no conclusions. I found I did indeed have some cariers that had the coil spring under the rocker! I also found I had some with the L shaped flat spring, and even some like Ken mentioned that had no spring at all!
The only conclusion I can say is for sure (within my small collection) is that the ones with no spring had an opening cut clear through the carrier from side to side for the rocker to sit in. Those with coil or flat springs had a blind recess for the spring to sit in.
I'd be uncertain to say any particular period had a certain type of carrier, as my sampling is too small, and one or another might have a replaced carrier, so I'll have to keep checking them to see if there's a pattern that indicates early or late manufacture.
I took apart some 1893's also, and of the three I did, all had the flat L shaped spring on the carrier.-Vall
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

Thank you Marlinman. Sorry I created work for you, but now we have more light on the subject than before.

It is my estimation from being a gunsmith/machinist/parts manufacturer for over 50 years & trying to look back at what the factory did during production, that probably the 1888 may have had no spring at all (guessing here as not having the oportunity to have one apart), & leftover parts (carriers & rockers) were carried over into the 1889. The single coil type spring was probably implemented somewhere during the early 1889 production. Then there may have been some transition modifications verified by my wire L shaped attempt. All this while they may have been trying to use up a supply of the coil spring units. When these were exhausted, then the flat spring type & wider carrier that was being used on the 1893 came into being.

Serial numbers may not really tell the story, as it has been said by factory assemblers, that when their parts bins got low, someone would come along & refill the bin with possibly newer style parts. It may have taken months to have cleaned the last of the old stock out, of which they simply laid those aside, until they go enough to make a complete unit (in this case a carrier assembly), & put into a gun.
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by winmarsav »

The 1888 would not have carried over. While the carrier has a flat spring it is nothing like the 1889 and later models. My best guess would be that the spring was added to the carrier rocker in the 1894. I have 5 1889's and all have no spring. Of the 2 early 1894's that I have they also have no spring on the carrier rocker. I have not looked at any of my 94's, but if I remember right one has a flat spring.
Ken
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by Gunacologist »

Thanks for the info on the 88, I was only guessing as I have not had the opportunity to look closely at one.

On the 89s you say that have no springs have you actually taken the rocker out of the carrier? The single coil ones I have seen, the spring is not visible unless you disassemble the rocker from the carrier. The spring lays in a shallow recess on the top of the rocker around the pin & only puts slight friction upward on the carrier.
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by winmarsav »

I will have to look again. Your last post explained it a lot better. I was looking for a spring as in return spring for the rocker and if I understand you right the one you are talking about would be more of a friction type spring. That would not change the outward appearance of the lifter and rocker whether it was set up for a spring or not as both would probably or could look the same.
Ken
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by winmarsav »

Yes they all do have the spring that you were talking about. I even checked some of my spare parts and those lifters had the spring also.
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by winmarsav »

That would be a very easy spring to miss. I usually never take the rocker out of that type of carrier when cleaning one. Have never had to replace one either. But I did take one apart a while back out of an 1894 that was very dirty. While cleaning everything inside the action and takeing the bolt all apart, I noticed a small circle laying on the bench that was probably the carrier spring. At the time I thought it was probably just a part of some of the crude in the action. Action worked just fine after cleaning, but I would guess that the tension on the carrier rocker would make the lifter more reliable especially if the action was tilted far to the right during cycling. I replaced the spring today, now that I realize that it was missing one.
Ken
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Re: Model 1894 carrier rocker spring variations

Post by dwostler »

I'm sorry, this is such an old post.

I have a Marlin 1894 in 32-20, made around 1897.

I have feeding issues and recently took my carrier out of the gun.

I have a carrier with the rocker, but no spring.

I think that is my problem, so I just ordered one from Numrich.

Can someone show or tell me how the flat spring goes into the rocker?

Please see photo attached via link

Thanks, Dennis O.

https://thebugfather.smugmug.com/Marlin-1894/n-xJvjKJ
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