Marlin 39- my screws are loose

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Well, the rifle's screws are probably not loose. This rifle is new to me. It's actually my first Marlin. Honestly my Dad was bidding on it, and told me so. He was all excited because it was one of the rifles that Annie Oakley used. Then someone outbid him, so I outbid them- here I am- trying my best to restore what needs to be restored on this firearm then give it to dad.




I am thinking that these might be the wrong screws. As a guess, it looks to me like someone put a tang mount peep sight on the rifle, and then took it off, but left some longer screws in place. Either that or they didn't line up the holes very well when screwing back in. I haven't taken those screws out yet. How long should these tang screws be, and should I expect these to bite only wood? (I saw the sticky about marlinscrews- thanks marlin-collectors!)




I have yet to shoot the rifle, this weekend I'll check it's operation. I'd like to eventually remove the scope- which is a working Weaver 2.5x fixed on what I assume is a Weaver mount which screws into the side of the receiver. The front sight blade is prevalent in the scope, and I prefer open sights.

My question is- would I be able to find a true Marlin 39 rear sight/ramp easily enough? Someone catch me if I'm wrong, but in browsing I've found Marlin 39a rear sights advertised to work on Mod39- but that can't be true because nearly all 39a were round barreled rifles- the ramp should have the barrel radius filed into it- right? Octagon should be flat. I'm leery of the same part working on both, so please correct my ignorance!

Ha.. maybe go back to a tang mount peep sight or keep the scope. I just fear that I'll end up with rust on the receiver under it- if I don't already have it under there.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Whynotthinkwhynot;

The screws in the upper tang are indeed for a tang mounted peep sight. The correct screws will be "plug" screws that are flush with the upper tang when installed. The present screws do not screw into the wood as the upper tang is threaded for the sight screws or the "plug" screws.
A proper rear sight will show up on eBay from time to time. It is not the same as a 39-A rear sight. The 39-A rear sight is more of a stamped metal sight whereas the Model 39 sight is not. Barrel configuration will not make a difference to the sight as there is not that much contact with the barrel.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Thanks! I’m hoping the person who cranked those down didn’t ruin the threads if there is a shoulder on those tang screws. I’ll find out soon.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

I appreciate the help and the experience. I’m sure I’ll be back with some more simple and obvious questions since I’m an enthusiast not a collector or restorer. I saw a lot of variations on GB over the few weeks since I purchased this. One interesting one just popped up a few days ago. Someone in Covington TN is selling a 39 with “color case hardening” on the receiver. From what I’ve seen previously Marlin didn’t “color” harden those receivers. Color hardening is pretty, but everything I’ve seen prior to this one was simply a dull finish with some flecks or dim color. I assume it was done for strength and not for looks.

Apparently it looks like my PO used Tru-Oil on this stock at some point far in the past. It has the dark red look of very old linseed oil that has been outside in the sun. Also the bolt doesn’t quite fit with the lines of the receiver perfectly. It’s not exactly an old version S/N S14220, so I’m assuming it was made in 1937. Initial inspection leads me to believe that the barrel is microgrooved rifling, so a replacement I assume. I am thinking that Marlin didn’t start MG barrels until 1953 or so.

I’ve got some research to do on that scope too- out of curiousity.

Yes, I’m a rambler when it comes to online conversations.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Whynotthinkwhynot:

The original finish on the receivers was color-case hardening. It was a finish like blue would be, plus it did give the receiver some strength.
The gun on GB has the original finish that all Model 39's had.
The "S" prefix serial number guns were made from 1925 to 1932.
The barrel on your gun appears to be original from the photo. The roll stamp on a Model 39 will be "Marlin Firearms Corporation" on the first line and "New Haven, Conn. --Patented--" on the second line.

[marlinman93]

The plug screws used on a Model 39 are 8-40 thread, and will have a small lip on top that stops them from going too deep. Brownells sells them, as does Larry Osborn in the link here on this site.
There were two sights made back in that era, and one is long for centerfire '93 and '94 models. The 39 got a shorter version. These show up on Ebay occasionally, and will usually run from $75-$100 complete with elevator.

This one appears to be the correct sight:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-semi-b ... Sw7ExcXuFq

Your gun wasn't factory drilled and tapped for the Weaver side mount scope, so you'll need to figure out what those screws are, and buy the plug screws for the side if you remove the scope. But be sure to keep that scope and mount and mark them with a tag stating what they were for. The gun's value is hurt because of the holes, but not as much with a neat old scope and mount still with it.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Marlin stamp- I got that!



I'm having more trouble with image hosting than finding answers on the rifle. I used Imgur, and accidentally made several pictures public. Once a pic is made pubic, you can't modify it, and mine were too large to post on this site.



My case hardening is muddy. Probably light rust or simply rubbed all the color off with oil over the years. I thought color was added in case hardening by introducing bone and wood ash carbon while the part was heated to about 1000 degrees F then quenching in oil. I doubt that I will try to do anything to change it other than remove a few specks of rust that are under the scope on the receiver. I'll probably use a penny for that, but I did order a Big45 rust cleaning pad. Is that sort of stuff ok with case hardened metals like it is with blued metals? Also, what about using Gun Juice to prevent future rust- would that work on case hardened steel?

Also I noticed that the lines of the bolt at the top rear corners don't mate perfectly with the slope of the receiver. I read somewhere that the star stamped tang, which mine has, indicated rifles that had better finished parts- but I have yet to see a 39 that doesn't have a star stamped tang. I'm eagerly curious to compare this bolt to the bolt on my friend's 39M to see if the bolt was replaced during it's life.



Over all, aside of a small amount of rust, what appears to be Tru-Oil treatment wearing off, and many deep scratches on the forearm- the rifle is in great condition for its age and being an obvious shooter. I think the original owner really loved this gun. That's what I see.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Whynotthinkwhynot;

Quite the hammer modification there! It works but they really did a job on the hammer spur.
Marlin case-coloring was done by packing the parts in a bone and charcoal mix in an iron box, then heated above 1000 degrees for a couple of hours, then the entire contents of the iron box were dumped into a barrel of water to quench the parts. The receiver was then coated with a thin layer of shellac to protect the surface. Over time the shellac would wear off to expose the metal surface. When that happened, the colors would tend to fade over time when exposed to too much sunlight and excessive wear from use.
The "star" was a marketing theme that was supposed to inform the customer that the gun in hand was the best that could be made with the materials and workmanship available at the time.
I cannot tell if your breech bolt is a replacement or not. But if it is the original bolt, do not use high speed ammunition. Use only standard velocity or target ammunition in your Model 39. To do otherwise risks cracking the breech bolt if it is not cracked already. You would need to take it to a machine shop that magnifluxes parts to see if it is cracked.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Hammer job- yes I forgot to mention that. The scope mounts so low that it was necessary. I checked on the scope- it would’ve been nice if it was a Weaver 333 which was produced from ‘34 to ‘46, but in the receiver pic you can see it’s a J25 which began production in ‘47 so there’s no telling when the work was done.

I didn’t think about magnafluxing. I figured when the bolt broke, it broke in pieces. I wish I’d taken a pic of the obvious filing done on the other side of the breech bolt which doesn’t look like old school US manufacturing to me. I did take pics of the “s” shape on the bottom of the grip that I showed off on the plasti-gun site I belong to at the request of some thread followers who’d never seen nor heard of a 39 before.

In an earlier thread I started Marlinman suggested I use Aguila standard velocity which I don’t have right now, but my local Academy carries. I’ll get some tomorrow. I wish I had more time to spend with it, but it will get appropriate attention this weekend.

I’m learning slowly, thanks again for all the help.

[marlinman93]

Don't use anything aggressive to clean the color case hardening! The penny to scrape off individual rust spots is OK, but then just wipe it with oil afterwards. Anything else will leave a light spot showing something was done.
The "star" was as Regnier mentioned, and advertising promotion. Every gun that left the factory during the period the star stamp was used got that stamp. So it was not to indicate a particular gun was better, but a QC stamp indicating all guns had been thoroughly checked and were the finest Marlin could make.
The breech bolts were never designed to fit the rear of the receiver perfectly. Every one I've owned or seen protruded slightly, and didn't match. No issues there, as that's normal.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Thanks for more information Marlinman. I hope I’m not wearing your fingers out. I had a question about disassembling the magazine tube for cleaning, but I found a sticky on a pump action page that shows how to do it. I’m going to go check, but I assume it’s the same since it’s the same design. There’s a mag tube screw that holds the magazine to the barrel, unscrew, but leave in place to prevent the magazine from springing apart unexpectedly. Push the screw out with a punch, and using the punch to hold the assembly together, lower the inner tube. Punch out the pin that holds the mag tube latch in place. Note that the inner tube, magazine cap, and spring catch have a slot to fit in the tube. That’s probably easier to see than to write. Pics were provided.

For cleaning metal, thanks I’ll keep it light, like use the side of the penny instead of holding it flat. I typically use Kroil on a rag first, or Hoppes. I’ve never worked on real case hardened metal before, and I certainly don’t want to ruin it. At least I know enough to ask before I screw up. As far as cleaning the wood goes, I think I’ll stick to specialty antique furniture cleaners. I don’t want to remove the old linseed oil’s reddish hue. The only way to really get that color is years of sun and use. I just want the dirt gone so I can figure out if it’s Tru-Oil or shellac or what it is that makes the stock so shiny in places it hasn’t worn off. Murphy’s Oil soap and an old tooth brush, for example.

[marlinman93]

It's quite likely in a century of use the stoacks got refinished, or at least another coat of finish on them. But original Marlin stocks had a reddish hue to them. Not as red as a Winchester, but they did have some red tint to them.
That said, from what I see of your stocks I'd not strip them or over clean them either. They might have additional finish applied, but it looks appropriate to the rest of the gun, and changing or restoring it will detract from the look.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Well the rifle shoots great. I had a doofus mistake, my take down screw was not tight which caused a few FTF and FTL. That was 4 times out of 100, so not too bad. I had to replace my nylon cleaning brushes, so having brand new ones on hand I rubbed over the stock and knocked dust off of it and the scope. The stock is not that dirty, but other parts are.

I took pics of the bolts in my friend's 39 Mountie, and my 39. I am sure I have the original breech bolt. There's a big area cut out of the bolt material about 3/8" wide. I'm starting to wonder what Marlin engineers were thinking, and why they would go through so much extra trouble in the first place.

Ideally, I'd like to fit a later breech bolt, and keep the original free from harm. A quick search for parts gave me a heart attack. Ebay has quite a few, and I know why. Not everyone is prepared to purchase a used part for $160 that will require gun-smithing to install. Especially when the part was so recently available for $50 new. I fall into that category as well. I'm not horribly surprised that nobody is offering to make reproduction bolts for these weapons as it's probably rare for these to break. Oddly, 32RF Marlin lever action bolts are half the price of the .22 bolts from the same people.

I don't see sourcing a bolt as something I'll be working on immediately.

Can you tell me what the difference is between the new style ejector and the old style? I assume my ejector is the old style, and I also assume that the ejector used is dependent on the bolt installed and not the rest of the rifle. In other words I wouldn't have to worry about which type was utlized in a used bolt- correct?

Pics of the bolts from yesterday are coming.

[marlinman93]

Old style ejectors were simply a spring and the ejector. New style had a plate that the ejector was mounted in and were screwed into the side of the receiver with screws from the left side.

I really wouldn't worry about getting a new breech bolt. As long as you use the standard velocity ammo it will never give you any problems. The Aguila Standard Velocity I previously mentioned isn't any more expensive than cheap high velocity ammo. I buy it at Cabelas at $24 for 10 boxes. That's a great price for ammo that's not only safe, but much more accurate too.
Save the cheap high velocity ammo for the Ruger 10-22's. They love hot ammo.

[Whynotthinkwhynot]

Ha ha, or save the high velocity ammo for a future 39A or 39 HS prefix. I have bolt slingers, but I have more fun with lever action .22s. I don’t know why, I just do. I can always borrow one. My feelings wouldn’t be hurt if a “Bubba-ed” 39 with a horrible stock replacement appeared on GB. I could go all custom stock with a colored laminate blend, adjustable cheek rest, adjustable length of pull, bench rest flat on the bottom, and a 3” fore end with appropriate grip tape.

That ammo was very consistent. I shot at 6” and 4” targets at 200 ft, 12x12 splatterburst. I used KY adjustments to zero in, but it was about 6” off at that distance. Someone probably played with the scope dials. Next time I’ll zero.