Pre 1899 serial numbers

[bbsoda]

ATF says that the test for an "antique" gun is the date that the serial number was applied to the frame of a gun. I'm wondering if the number 175500 that is accepted as the highest serial number gun shipped in 1898 is accurate. If I read Brophy correctly, I'm not sure this is true. Have the existing records been searched to find the exact highest serial number of a gun shipped in 1898? There were some Model 1889s shipped in 1899, but these are all antiques because their serial numbers are much earlier. The number 175500 seems a bit "even" I think.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Bbsoda;

Consider the 175500 an average that somehow Brophy came up with when he (actually his Secretary) searched through the records.
For instance, serial number 175502 is a Model 1895 that was not shipped until October of 1901. There are a couple of other Model 1895's with serial numbers in that area that were shipped in 1899. A quick check of that record book shows that 176874 is a Model 1892 that was shipped December of 1898. Nearly every other gun on that page of the records were shipped in 1899. So, there are numbers higher than 175500 that were shipped in 1898. The exact highest number would take a while to find, but really would not help as guns did sit in the warehouse at times before being shipped, such as the 1895 and 1892 as mentioned above.

[marlinman93]

It's unfortunate that many gun makers kept track of only ship dates, vs. only manufacture dates. But I doubt they ever dreamed we'd be where we're at today. If it came down to a legal issue where one had to defend themselves, I believe there is enough evidence in the factory records to find examples as Regnier shows of guns higher than 175500 shipping before Dec. 31st 1898. But I also doubt it will rarely be an issue.
What may become an issue is those with much lower serial numbers sitting in the warehouse awaiting shipment, and showing they shipped long after 1898! I've owned a couple that shipped 3 years later than the serial number indicated, and one that lettered as 1903 but built in mid 1898. The question there is what would BATF decide is the date of manufacture? My guess is they'd go by the recorded ship date, and those guns wouldn't be considered antique, even though they likely were made prior to the cutoff.

[bbsoda]

Thanks guys,
The reason I consider this question important is simply for accuracy sake. ATF has ruled that the date of manufacture is the date the serial number was applied to the frame. The date of manufacture is the control of what is, and what isn't, an antique. Since it is safe to assume that all guns with numbers below the highest serial number shipped in 1898 were at least far enough along in production that the numbers were applied to their frames, then all of those guns are pre 1899. The vast majority of those guns were probably sitting in the warehouse, and some probably had serial numbers higher than the highest shipped in 1898. We'll never know about those of course. That's assuming, of course, that serial numbers were applied in numerical order, which seems extremely likely. You only need to check out prices of Winchester Model 92 carbines to see the very large difference between prices for pre 1899 guns versus "modern" ones. This information could become much more important in the future. Thanks much again for any help. Bill (bbsoda)

[bbsoda]

I failed to mention that I see you've given number 176874 as a gun shipped in December 1898. That effectively adds 1374 guns to the antique side of the equation. I wonder how many more could be added??

[marlinman93]

I would agree that most likely serial numbers were added at the time of manufacture, and in order of manufacture. May even been added as soon as the receiver was finished, and most certainly long before it was casehardened or blued. The exception being the 1894 muskets reworked into sporting rifles which had their serial numbers ground off and stamped new when the actions were reworked.

[bbsoda]

So now we need to know the highest serial number shipped in 1898. How can we accomplish this? Sounds like the available records are pretty disorganized. What order was used on them? Can I be of any help? If we can come up with that one piece of information I will attempt to get a ruling from the ATF that they consider all guns with SNs below that number to be antiques. Thanks much, Bill