1889 Marlin 22" barrel
Moderators: Regnier (gunrunner), JohnK, Sure-Shot
1889 Marlin 22" barrel
I have an 1889 Marlin 44-40 with 22" half octagon barrel with M in circle proof mark on bottom flat near receiver and JM in circle on adjacent flat. According to shop records SN 28077 was shipped on Nov. 5 1889 with 38-40 24" half octagon barrel. The caliber is 44-40 stamped in front of receiver and we don't think it has been rebarreled or shortened as the magazine seems original and the nonstandard front sight seems properly located. Also the forearm fits nicely to location of barrel change. Has it been rebarreled or are the records wrong? By the way, I measured 22" to the bolt face not the receiver. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44-40Man;
The records definitely show that serial number as a 24 inch half octagon barrel. The records have been wrong, but not very often.
A professional gunsmith could have shortened the barrel, in which case, it might appear to be original. One way to tell is to remove either the front sight or the magazine tube dovetail stud and look inside the dovetail slot. An original barrel will have original blue in the slot along with correct machining marks when the dovetail was milled into the barrel. If there is no blue in the slot, then the barrel is cut.
You might also measure the distance(s) of the dovetail slots from the end of the barrel against an original, uncut barrel to see if they are the same. The slots may "seem properly located", but you really should measure.
The records definitely show that serial number as a 24 inch half octagon barrel. The records have been wrong, but not very often.
A professional gunsmith could have shortened the barrel, in which case, it might appear to be original. One way to tell is to remove either the front sight or the magazine tube dovetail stud and look inside the dovetail slot. An original barrel will have original blue in the slot along with correct machining marks when the dovetail was milled into the barrel. If there is no blue in the slot, then the barrel is cut.
You might also measure the distance(s) of the dovetail slots from the end of the barrel against an original, uncut barrel to see if they are the same. The slots may "seem properly located", but you really should measure.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
You refer to shortening my barrel but it is not a 24" 38-40 but is 44-40 half octagon 22" and doesn't have standard silver blade front sight. Also in the shop records a line is marked to the left of the serial no. Is there any significance to this mark? Thanks
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marlinman93
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
Since the round portion of any half octagon Marlin is after the forearm and cap, it shouldn't be an issue with fit regardless. So fit doesn't apply to verifying if it's correct. Unfortunately the factory letter is going to be the determining factor, and as Regnier mentioned, I haven't known of errors. There are plenty of "omissions" in factory records, so if information was nonexistent, then that would be acceptable. There are also rarely any factory records of guns being sent back to be rebarreled, so it is possible the barrel was changed at a customer's request. Unfortunately if it was, there's still no proof. I once owned an 1897 deluxe rifle that was sent back in 1913 to have a new barrel put on it. The gun had been in the same family since new in 1898, and they even had the correspondence concerning having it rebarreled.
Marlin lever actions 1870's-WWI, Ballards, and single shot rifles!
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44-40Man;
First off, Model 1889 barrels were not marked .44-40 for the caliber marking, they would have been marked 44W. This tells me that the barrel more than likely has been rebored and rechambered from .38-40 to .44-40 and cut off when it was rebored. Things like that happen when the end of the barrel was somehow damaged.
A photo of the top of the barrel showing the barrel markings would help. How close is the rear sight to the receiver? What is the distance from the end of the roll die marking Marlin Fire-Arms to the receiver? How close is the half octagon to round section to the forearm cap? What I am getting at, has the barrel been cut off from the breech end, and then re-threaded and re-installed into the receiver. This would allow the original caliber marking to be removed (in this case 38W) so the new caliber marking could replace the old, original caliber marking.
Regardless of what type of sight that was used, the distance from the end of the barrel would be the same. Marlin used a tooling jig where the end of the barrel was inserted into the jig, and then a milling machine would cut the dovetail. All barrels would have the same distance front sight distance as the jigs were set up alike for uniformity. Only the rear sight was moved or left off per customers request.
I do not know the significance regarding the "mark" in the margin next to the serial number in the records, and any remark regarding this would be pure speculation at best and in no way provable one way or the other. It may be nothing more than a slip of the pen when recording the information.
First off, Model 1889 barrels were not marked .44-40 for the caliber marking, they would have been marked 44W. This tells me that the barrel more than likely has been rebored and rechambered from .38-40 to .44-40 and cut off when it was rebored. Things like that happen when the end of the barrel was somehow damaged.
A photo of the top of the barrel showing the barrel markings would help. How close is the rear sight to the receiver? What is the distance from the end of the roll die marking Marlin Fire-Arms to the receiver? How close is the half octagon to round section to the forearm cap? What I am getting at, has the barrel been cut off from the breech end, and then re-threaded and re-installed into the receiver. This would allow the original caliber marking to be removed (in this case 38W) so the new caliber marking could replace the old, original caliber marking.
Regardless of what type of sight that was used, the distance from the end of the barrel would be the same. Marlin used a tooling jig where the end of the barrel was inserted into the jig, and then a milling machine would cut the dovetail. All barrels would have the same distance front sight distance as the jigs were set up alike for uniformity. Only the rear sight was moved or left off per customers request.
I do not know the significance regarding the "mark" in the margin next to the serial number in the records, and any remark regarding this would be pure speculation at best and in no way provable one way or the other. It may be nothing more than a slip of the pen when recording the information.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
The distance from the muzzle to the front edge of sight dove tail is 3/4'. The sight is a brass beaded sight much like winchester calls a JACK SIGHT. The distance from the receiver to the back edge of the apparently standard rear sight dovetail is 5-1/2". the distance from the receiver to the 0 in 44-40"is 1/4". The distance from the receiver to the end of the roll markings is 9-3/4". The octagon section ends at the forearm cap. If the barrel had been cut 2" wouldn't the forearm dovetail be in the wrong place by 2"? This would leave a 2nd dovetail " closer to the receiver. Without removing the forearm again I would estimate the M in a circle on the bottom flat to be about 1/4". Is the OD of a 44 barrel the same as a 38 barrel? In a site called AMERICAN FIREARMS there seems to be a question as to how many 22" barrels were made.I have many photos if I knew how to send them.
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44-40Man;
Since there is only one forearm tenon dovetail slot, the barrel has not been set back.
What is the last patent date on the barrel?
Since there is only one forearm tenon dovetail slot, the barrel has not been set back.
What is the last patent date on the barrel?
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
April 2, 1889
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44-40Man;
That is a Model 1889 barrel. When a gun was returned to Marlin for repair, there is usually a second ship date, in parenthesis to indicate the guns return and shipment. There is no second date for your serial number. And, since the barrel is marked .44-40 and not 44W as Marlin marked the Marlin barrels of the time, it would still indicate that was not done at the factory. Marlin would have just installed a new barrel instead of reboring it, rechambering it and not mismarked the barrel with a stamp other than what was normally used.
The records reflect that 10 22 inch barrels listed in the records. This serial number is not one of them.
That is a Model 1889 barrel. When a gun was returned to Marlin for repair, there is usually a second ship date, in parenthesis to indicate the guns return and shipment. There is no second date for your serial number. And, since the barrel is marked .44-40 and not 44W as Marlin marked the Marlin barrels of the time, it would still indicate that was not done at the factory. Marlin would have just installed a new barrel instead of reboring it, rechambering it and not mismarked the barrel with a stamp other than what was normally used.
The records reflect that 10 22 inch barrels listed in the records. This serial number is not one of them.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
I have a copy of page 310 of shop records which shows 9 barrels with 38/40 or 44/40 and barrel length. The remainder are shown as cal/ barrel length. Marlin preferred UMC cartridges which are 44/40 with a different bullet weight and velocity than 44 WCF. Could that explain the different markings? Thanks
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44j-40Man;
Looking at page 310 of the records, I count 5 guns (all 20 inch barrels) as .44-40 caliber, listed in with a couple of guns listed as carbines. (28027 & 28032 and many others on page 309) I found no guns on page 310 with .38-40 listed as the caliber, all .38's were simply listed as .38 with the barrel length and configuration.
The person recording the serial numbers did not care if the new owner of the gun used UMC, Winchester or Peters ammunition, and the Model 1889's made at the time were marked either 32W, 38W or 44W to indicate that these were Winchester Center Fire caliber guns. The dies used to mark the barrels were made in shop by the factory gun engravers. Making odd dies would take them away from their regular duties of engraving firearms, so they would not have stopped and made up an odd die just to mark a few barrels differently. The dies were somewhat expensive to make considering all the time involved, so they only made up new ones when necessary.
Never the less, the record for your serial number 28077 is listed as a 24 inch, half octagon barrel in .38 caliber. That is what a collector will see when looking at a factory record for that number.
Looking at page 310 of the records, I count 5 guns (all 20 inch barrels) as .44-40 caliber, listed in with a couple of guns listed as carbines. (28027 & 28032 and many others on page 309) I found no guns on page 310 with .38-40 listed as the caliber, all .38's were simply listed as .38 with the barrel length and configuration.
The person recording the serial numbers did not care if the new owner of the gun used UMC, Winchester or Peters ammunition, and the Model 1889's made at the time were marked either 32W, 38W or 44W to indicate that these were Winchester Center Fire caliber guns. The dies used to mark the barrels were made in shop by the factory gun engravers. Making odd dies would take them away from their regular duties of engraving firearms, so they would not have stopped and made up an odd die just to mark a few barrels differently. The dies were somewhat expensive to make considering all the time involved, so they only made up new ones when necessary.
Never the less, the record for your serial number 28077 is listed as a 24 inch, half octagon barrel in .38 caliber. That is what a collector will see when looking at a factory record for that number.
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
Please look at SNs# 28108, 28120, 28129, 28139. As this is my first Marlin I am trying to learn. I just realized that some of my count is shown on the left half of page 311.Thanks for your patience.
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Regnier (gunrunner)
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Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
44-40Man;
Yes, those 4 numbers are listed as .38-40 out of 38 guns (one line is blank for a total of 39 lines). Also on page 311, 2 are listed as 44-40 with 20 inch barrels (again most likely carbines) and 2 at the end of page 311 listed as .32-20. Out of 75 filled in serial numbers, 8 have the full caliber listed instead of just the first two numbers of the caliber next to the barrel length. Frankly, I take nothing away from this other than the person recording the information did something different, maybe as a change of pace. These were all recorded by the same person (same handwriting), but over the years, different people did the recording of information. Each did it a little differently, and some included more information than others. If you get a record that listed the gun as engraved or had selected wood, that is the luck of the draw. It does not happen very often.
You are looking at the serial number record pages, may I ask where you are seeing these?
Yes, those 4 numbers are listed as .38-40 out of 38 guns (one line is blank for a total of 39 lines). Also on page 311, 2 are listed as 44-40 with 20 inch barrels (again most likely carbines) and 2 at the end of page 311 listed as .32-20. Out of 75 filled in serial numbers, 8 have the full caliber listed instead of just the first two numbers of the caliber next to the barrel length. Frankly, I take nothing away from this other than the person recording the information did something different, maybe as a change of pace. These were all recorded by the same person (same handwriting), but over the years, different people did the recording of information. Each did it a little differently, and some included more information than others. If you get a record that listed the gun as engraved or had selected wood, that is the luck of the draw. It does not happen very often.
You are looking at the serial number record pages, may I ask where you are seeing these?
Due to the increasing cost of ammunition, there will be no warning shot!
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
The growing federal deficit = generational slavery to the national debt.
If the world was perfect.......it wouldn't be.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
Regnier,
I found a site which for $10 would furnish me with the shop records for 1 serial no. However the link gave me page 310 and half of 311. It is very informative such as 28032 is a nickel trimmed carbine. As the standard rifle was fitted with 24" round barrels, octagon would be special. Mine is shown as a half octagon. SN # 28117 is an octagon. On ii/5/1889 there were 23 rifles shipped. The record I have starts at page 310 SN# 28025 and goes to left half of Page 311 and SN# 28141. I believe that for $25 you can request info for 3 SNs. The site is ............................................... I hope you find this as interesting as I.
I found a site which for $10 would furnish me with the shop records for 1 serial no. However the link gave me page 310 and half of 311. It is very informative such as 28032 is a nickel trimmed carbine. As the standard rifle was fitted with 24" round barrels, octagon would be special. Mine is shown as a half octagon. SN # 28117 is an octagon. On ii/5/1889 there were 23 rifles shipped. The record I have starts at page 310 SN# 28025 and goes to left half of Page 311 and SN# 28141. I believe that for $25 you can request info for 3 SNs. The site is ............................................... I hope you find this as interesting as I.
Re: 1889 Marlin 22" barrel
Very interesting page. Rick you may want to check this site out. I always thought that Cody could only charge for this information.
Brian
Brian
Road King
" More guns then I need, but not as many as I want."
" More guns then I need, but not as many as I want."