Marlin Serial Number Mystery In Marlin Collector

[Parley Baer]

HI Rick

I have no problem with your thoughts on the Marlin serial numbers prior to 1921. This means that the Marlin factory was busier than I had thought with sporting arms during and after the war years. We are talking close to 40,000 Model 1893's being produced in that time frame.

I will add that the serial numbers I have observed with those that have a A,B,C or D prefix is that they appear to cover the full serial number range from 1 to say 9999 and for that reason I stopped gathering information. What I will do is revisit the B,C and D serial ranges and look for those in the 9000 range.

I agree that the B prefix is the least observed but they seem to cover the full serial number range. There appears to be more of those in the B range that went to Mexico for some reason. This is anecdotal information with guns I know have come back from Mexico.

In my notes I do have a Model 1893 with A9201 and a D83XX. Also a Model 97 with serial number 456420.

Update: I have serial number C97XX and B8471

[Parley Baer]

Some of items of note and fodder for discussion.

1. Model 1893 SN 419119 was shipped to Annie Oakley in 1917. This was a high grade rifle and with an earlier serial number than the O.C. Hillhouse Model 97.

2. Page 547 Brophy. June 7, 1921 letter. "They are not making the Marlin line."

3. Page 38 Brophy. Catalog insert sometime in the 1916 to 1919 time period. " This catalog is not up to date and most models canot be furnished. Our entire plant has been given over to the Government for the past two years. Preperations are now being made for again taking up the manufacture of sporting firearms and we would suggest that you write us about May 1st for the new catalog." From this one would assume no new sporting firearms were made for two years. Say 1917 to early 1919.

4. Page 42 Brophy. "The manufacture of machine guns and war work was terminated in 1919. However, the Marlin-Rockwell Corporation continued a small organization into 1921 to make repairs to Marlin sporting arms, and to sell repair parts still on hand. In August 1921, the sporting arms business and plant was taken over by the newly formed Marlin Firearms Corporation with John Moran as president."

The "bargain sheets" in the glossary show a number of higher grade rifles as being available. This could be where the Annie Oakley gun came from. It seems the higher grade guns have serial numbers that ship later than normal. Could the O.C. Hillhouse Model 97 have come from inventory? Page 491 and 492 of Brophy have some nice 1897' listed for sale.

So the question begs when were the 40,000 Model 1893 A, B, C and D prefix rifles made "if" Brophy is correct. They would have to have been made between Mid 1915 to 1917 and from mid 1919 to the end of 1920 if the original serial number system was in use until mid 1915. However Brophy says on page 42 they were only doing repairs and selling parts on hand after WW1. Anyways food for further discussion.

[Sure-Shot]

Parley it is always fun to read your work on adding to the records. Just wanted to tip my hat and say thanks for the information. Randy

[marlinman93]

I personally wouldn't put an end to the range of production as late 1920, as I'd guess when the Corporation took over in early 1921 they probably didn't immediately change anything, so serial numbers, etc. could have continued for months later.

[Parley Baer]

Hi Val

Thank you for entering into the discussion.

2. Page 547 Brophy. June 7, 1921 letter. "They are not making the Marlin line."

. Page 42 Brophy. "The manufacture of machine guns and war work was terminated in 1919. However, the Marlin-Rockwell Corporation continued a small organization into 1921 to make repairs to Marlin sporting arms, and to sell repair parts still on hand. In August 1921, the sporting arms business and plant was taken over by the newly formed Marlin Firearms Corporation with John Moran as president."

So the question would be how much sporting arms production was there at the end of WW1 and until 1921? From Brophy there appears that not much was going on.

Next question would be how many model 1893's would Marlin have made a year during that time frame on average? From the serial numbers from the guns themselves it would appear that they went right up to say A9999. We have A1 and A30 reported. I have B127 reported and so on. So it looks like the full serial number range of these rifles was utilized. That would put it around 40,000 rifles. If they averaged 5000 per year that would take 8 years.

Also the statement from Marlin Rockwell that for two years no new sporting arms were produced. Only what was on hand.

One more thing I have found. Page 46 of Brophy. This is from an article in Arms and the Man magazine of November 15, 1921. " The new corporation will manufacture the full Marlin line of repeating rifles and repeating shotguns, also single shot rifles, single guns, double guns and revolvers.

The work lof reorganization is already under way and the company expects to progress rapidly, reestablishing the business so that within a short time the plant will be able to operate with a force of three hundred (300) or more men in regular production."

To me this would lend credence to Brophy that little was going on and that the new Marlin Firearms Corporation had to reestablish the business.

We do know that the Marlin-Rockwell company did dabble in sporting arms as their roll stamps were on some rifles with new models introduced.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Parley;

Sorry I did not respond sooner, I was at the Tulsa Gun Show this weekend and just got back to the computer. I will try to help answer some of your questions as I can. The Model '97 with the 456,000 range number places the production figures higher than the estimate I used in the article, which helps show that more guns were produced after the 1914 date I used as a basis for production numbers.

The Annie Oakley gun was one of those guns that was left-over in the inventory when Marlin Arms and Marlin-Rockwell took over. There have been other guns with 1917 presentation dates that certainly were not made up for the occassion. These guns were definitely left-over and had a presentation engraved on the barrel.
The O.C. Hillhouse gun is NOT a left-over gun. It has a special presentation engraved on the left side of the receiver: Made especially for O.C. Hillhouse If you have your past issues of our newsletter, look at Volume 20, Number 2 for a picture of the Hillhouse gun presentation. From that picture, you can see it was made at the time of the presentation, in the fall of 1913.
If I am reading your post correctly, you are assuming that all the production of these 40,000 guns were Model 1893's and that the serial numbers were not intermixed in the models as they were previously. We know that the Model '92, 1893, '94, some 1895's and '97's can be found with the "A" prefix. If the numbers are intermixed in the models, then there would be far less 1893's than the 40,000 you mention. There is a picture of a Model '97 on page 241 with serial number A7376 and a Model '92 on page 188 with a serial number of A1265 in Brophy's book. So if the models are intermixed in the numbers, then there would be less of the Model 1893's as all the guns in the serial number range would not have been Model 1893's.
Any sporting arms made during WW I would have had to taken place between contracts to make machine guns. The Corporation certainly would not have laid the workers off between contracts so to keep them busy they would assemble sporting arms. When the parts ran out as I mentioned in the article, then they could no longer assemble that model. When the current Marlin Firearms Company moved in 1970, there were still parts left over from the pre 1916 Company that was sold to Numrich Gun Parts Corporation. All the parts were "dumped" into the middle of the floor and were put into barrels to go to Numrich so that the Company would not have to pay to move those obsolete parts. Ed Stempeck worked at the factory at the time and he told me that he was told to take anything he wanted as it was going to be gotten rid of. He took as much as he could, but could not get enough.... There was so much stuff there, he just could not get it all. So even in 1970, there were good parts left-over from the pre 1916 Marlin Firearms Company.
I think I covered everything, but if not let me know.

[Parley Baer]

Hi Rick

I have to make the Tulsa Gun Show one day. It is supposed to be pretty good. On with the discussion.

"If I am reading your post correctly, you are assuming that all the production of these 40,000 guns were Model 1893's and that the serial numbers were not intermixed in the models as they were previously"

That is a good point that you make. They could possibly be intermixed with the other rifles of the time. AS I look over my serial number list so far I have only seen the Model 97 with an A prefix. You have reported one Model 1895 with an A prefix. I have the model 92 listed with both an A and C prefix. The Model 1893's run the whole range from A1 to my high so far of D83XX and obviously was the most popular.

The Model 94 I have the A prefix in the that era but with only two listed. The problem with the Model 94 are those I have in the B and D range and none with C by the way. I have three rifles in the B with the vast majority in the D range with some with say 1921 and later features. That would be maybe a star, bullseye or serial number under the lever. Funny of the nearly 100 Model 94 rifles I have listed only two have a Corporation barrel and they are .38-40's. The others in the B and D could have been made earlier but there is no pattern.

You would think as popular as the Model 97 was it would be dispersed throughout the letter prefix serial number range. This is one of the reasons that led me to believe the later rifles had there own numbering system. It would be interesting to know the serial number of the 1895 with an A prefix. It could very will have been intermixed with the others and used the serial number stamp in use at the time.

The theory you have come up with is a good one. So for now I will expand my research and go back into the Letters prefixes on all the rifles. The only things against the theory is some of the rifles do not appear at this time to be dispersed within the A, B, C or D range with the Model 97 at the head of the list. Then there is the quote in Brophy.

. Page 38 Brophy. Catalog insert sometime in the 1916 to 1919 time period. " This catalog is not up to date and most models canot be furnished. Our entire plant has been given over to the Government for the PAST TWO YEARS. Preperations are now being made for again taking up the manufacture of sporting firearms and we would suggest that you write us about May 1st for the new catalog." Bold letters are mine and would May 1st be 1919?

Anyways the reasearch continues.

[marlinman93]

I guess I should not have confused things by stating the 1920 or 1921 dates. What I was getting at was whenever the "Corporation" began sporting rifle production, I would think it possible they used the same old leftover 1893 parts, and probably serial numbers for a short time. Eventually they would have gotten their rollstamps into production for the barrels, and at that time(?) or sometime, they would begin a serial number change?
We do know that when they began to asemble guns from leftover parts they did grind off old numbers, and crudely stamp larger font numbers on the lower tang in the same location as the old numbers. I've always thought this era of gun was some of the first built by the Corporation, once they had stopped using up previously serial numbered parts.
My reason for thinking this is these guns seem to run the gammut of having old rollstamps and new rollstamps on the barrels, which might indicate they were built during this transition.
Whatever happened, this exchange of thoughts, and theories is helpful, and definitely makes one think of numerous possibilities.

[Parley Baer]

The discussion is good. It is like getting in front of your peers in a scientific forum. You present your thesis and the rest go off to prove you right or wrong. For now I believe Rick is partially right and I concede the original serial numbers probably go higher in years than I had once thought. I'm just not convinced of the amount of production after say 1916 regarding the sporting arms or how much the serial numbers were intermingled with each other. Right now though it is the best theory going.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Parley;

Yes, you should attend the Tulsa show someday. There are about 4,000 tables in one building. Just be sure to wear your walking shoes!!!
If your re-read Harlan's question in the previous newsletter, he mentions he has 4 Model '97's with the "A" prefix.
As to the note on page 38 of Brophy's book, that was probably something Marlin-Rockwell sent out to new or smaller dealers wanting inventory to sell. If M-R had planned on selling the company after the war effort, they would need a customer base to show the new buyers. The older, larger dealers were probably getting most of what was being assembled during the war, and as old, established customers, they would have gotten preferential treatment. Also would go a long way in showing potential buyers that there were long time customers buying from M-R during the war. That is what I would have done.......

[Parley Baer]

Rick, I believe it is best to go with your theory for now as we would only be talking a 3 or 4 years maximum difference anyways. Back to the Model 97 example for a moment, if the serial numbers were indeed intermixed with the all the other models then I would think you would see Model 97's with B, C and D prefixes which I have yet to see show up. So far all I have seen is the A prefix.

[Regnier (gunrunner)]

Allen;

I agree with you about the Model '97's not showing up as often as you think they would, but it just may be that there were not enough parts left-over to make all that many of them. Or, there were enough left in inventory that they really did not need to assemble any from the parts that was left-over. I do have a Marlin Arms Corporation letter dated June, 1916 where a customer wants a special order Model '97. They are busy with machine gun work, and cannot get the gun up for him, so they offer him one from inventory that is similar to what he wants.
I just looked at another Marlin Arms Corporation letter dated July, 1916, and the post script says:
"Remember, war orders have not prevented us from supplying regular sporting trade requirements. We can ship you promptly any of our regular models of rifles or shotguns."

This letter is telling the "trade" of new prices and to adjust prices in catalogs and informing them to request new catalogs. Oh yes, it is signed by J.F. Moran, Sales Manager. I thought that was quite interesting.......Actually, both letters are interesting when you consider what one says, then the other basicly contradicts the first!

[Parley Baer]

Actually those letters might fit in with everything. During 1916 they might very well have been intermixing runs of sporting arms with war production guns and the special order 97 came in at the wrong time. Maybe sometime in 1917 to sometime in 1919 was when there was mostly war production according to the catalog insert. Then that would account for the no new production but maybe guns assembled from parts on hand.

Anyways I feel comfortable that we are close enough to the real truth for all practical purposes. I don't think two or three years is going to make a difference in the total scheme of things during that time frame. Until more evidence surfaces I think we are close enough.

[marlinman93]

There's no end of exceptions to what we think is probable. I've got a 1892 Marlin deluxe pistol grip, checkered, full octagon barrel. It's got all the features of a pre WWI gun, and the serial number is low enough to letter. When Rick checked it for me the serial number was all that showed in the records, which made me think it had never shipped????? Just a guess, but one odd thing on the gun that makes me think it shipped pretty late; the rollstamp is Marlin Firearms Corporation.

[Parley Baer]

"the rollstamp is Marlin Firearms Corporation." I agree, 1921 or later.