1892 feed problem

[marlinman93]

What makes you think I don't have any without cartridge stops? I've got more than one without the stop.

[apb]

Sorry Vall, an invalid assumption on my part.

[Hunt4em]

I have 5 1891's in .22cal. and none have cartridge stops. One of them was returned to the factory and had the cartridge guide put in the top of the receiver, but no cartridge stop. Must of been feeding fine, but jamming shells into the barrel. These actions can be tricky because, as Val pointed out, you can't operate them properly with the sideplate removed. I've often contemplated making a sideplate out of lexan so I could see just what was going on. Some times it's a matter of a few .001's between working and not! I've used quick set epoxy to build up various areas in trying to find out just what needed to be done and if it didn't work I just popped it off with no harm done. Use some of those blue colored dummy rounds and keep trying! The condition of the gun as you described tells me this gun worked at one time. If it was in pristine condition with an excellent bore, it could be possible it never worked when new.

John

[apb]

Interesting point John.

From the appearence of the interior this gun did work at one time.

I'm really having a tough time seeing how this is related to anything except cartridge length.

I have had some success operating the works with the side plate removed by holding the bolt and carrier down. I understand that I may be changing things somewhat by doing this but I don't think it makes much difference in this problem. The lexan plate idea is a good one.

[marlinman93]

apb,
If you're trying to work the mechanism with the sideplate off, that wont tell you much! The gunswithout a cartridge guide in the top or a cartridge stop in the left side, had a cartridge guide in the sideplate! That guie in the sideplate held the next round from entering the actiopn, just like later versions did with the stop that was fixed in the receiver.
As I mentioned before, if that spring shaped guide/stop (whatever we want to refer to it as) is bent, broken, or out of place, it wont stop the next cartridge. Does your gun have this spring in the sideplate that's held in with a single spring? Cartridge length doesn't matter, as it catches the bottom of the rim on the next cartridge, so you can shoot Long Rifle, Long, or Shorts, and it will stop the next one regardless, if it's working.-Vall

[apb]

Vall,

I don't know why I can't get this across to you but I'll try once again.

There is no cartridge stop in this rifle. Not in the receiver or the side plate. There is nothing to stop the next cartridge from sliding onto the carrier except the cartridge resting on the carrier. The length of the quarter round recess cut in the top of the carrier controlls how far onto the the carrier the cartridge can move. There is no way this mechanism can function with shorts, long and long rifle.

There is a spring in the top of the side plate which helps align the cartridge with the chamber but it has nothing to do with the problem I'm fighting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain what I have and how to best get it functioning.

If I can figue out how to post pictures on this board I'll try to take some pix to show just what I have.

[apb]

Vall

It might help if you check out this site: http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_in ... rifles.htm

It states that the 1891 Marlin did not have a cartridge stop and as such would only feed long rifle. It did, however have a cartridge guide spring, the twisted spring in the top part of the side plate.

Further down the page is a picture of an 1892 showing the cartridge stop in the receiver and located just behind the magazine plug. My rifle does not have that part there or in the side plate.

Thanks for being there and trying to help me with this problem.

[marlinman93]

I've seen Wisner's site, and actually helped them with supplied original parts to allow them to copy much of what they sell for these early Marlin rimfire lever actions. All I can say is BALONEY! Leroy is just plain wrong! From the very first Marlin lever action repeater .22, Marlin has always advertised their little .22 leveractions as being designed to shoot any and all of the .22 rimfire ammo from shorts, longs, to long rifles.
I quote my 1891 catalog:
"in one and the same rifle, without any adjustment, may be used any or all of the following well known rim-fire cartridges: .22 short, .22 long rifle, and .22-50 shot."
As I said before, you can call that little spring on the right receiver plate whatever you want, but it works to stop the next cartridge from following the first one into the receiver.
I'm done now, as I just can't assist any further.

[apb]

In spite of being called a "cartridge stop" I don't understand how the twisted spring in the right side plate of the 1892 can have any thing to do with blocking cartridges comming from the magazine. It is located well above where the magazine enters the receiver and never contacts the cartridge until the cartridge carrier approaches the top if it's travel.

I think the proper name for the part that prevents the next cartridge from exiting the magazine and allows the use of various lengths of ammo is the "cartridge cutoff".

My rifle in fact has no "cartridge cutoff" and as such I see no way it can function with ammo of varrying length.

Being precise in descriptions is difficult and not helped by the loose use of terms by many sources, myself included. If I have contibuted to misunderstanding through the lack of precise terms please accept my appologies. I really do try to be concise and correct in my descriptions.

Thanks again for any help.

[Hunt4em]

I just want to clear up any confusion I may have caused by incorrect terminalogy. My 91's,92's,97's and 39's all have the twisted spring type "cartridge stop" in the right side plate or half, but the 91's and early 92's do not have the cartridge cut off in the left side. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused!
Thanks, John

[DaveWoods]

This is Dave Woods
Back in the 90's I ran a restoration service for Marlins called Marlin A Restored Gun Should Not Look New. I was in the Gun List for a few years. The 1891 Early 1892 and very early 1897's had an extra little contour on the bottom of the carrier. I called this the "Cut Off Cam". the rotation of the lever base contacted this Cam at a certain point in the rotation of the lever, and raised the carrier just slightly. This tipped the front edge of the cartridge recess in the carrier up just high enough to cut off the next cartridge coming in. Over time the cut off cam became worn, and I also had guns come in where the lever base was worn also. The carrier would no longer hold back the next cartridge coming in.
I would have my tig welder add metal to the cam and build it up. Then I'd re shape the cut off cam to take out the wear. This was a long and laborious process the contour between the cam and the lever base had to be perfect, or it was back to the drawing board.

Dave Woods

[rldarmstr]

Has this thread ever been resolved? I have the same problem with two early marlins. One an 1891 and the other an 1892. If there was a resolution I sure would like to hear it.

[gollywobbler]

The solution to the cartridge feed stop is to shorten the length of the qurter round channel in the carrier so that the tip of the 1" long rifle round
is even with the front of the carrier, thereby stopping the next round from entering the receiver. Only long rifles can be fired.
Can it be that the first LR cartridges were longer than 1" ?

[gollywobbler]

Good for Val in 2008. He un derstands exactly how this thing works. In addtion, the last round will not chamber because there is no round in the magazine to seat the cartridge in the carrier --- unless you hold the muzzle up and hope gravity does its job. The magazine plug locks inside the frame long before it enters the frame --- and is lost in space !

[gollywobbler]

.22 carrier reproductions will work only with guns which have the cartridge stop mounted directly behind the magazine entrance.

Using only long rirles as the gauge, tig weld and dress the back of the carrier 1/4 channel to stop the cartridge so that the nose of the bullet extends exactly to the front edge of the carrier. This will permit the radiused flange on the carrier to raise slightly to stop the next Long rifle cartridge. If Weisner would offer a carrier with a shortened CNC channel cut, it would solve the problem with the 91 and some of the early 92's. Note that some of these 92's are marked with a seperate stamped "92", are round topped, and will have one or two varying 92 features. --- Marlin probably knew this a very long time ago and could offer different carriers for each .22 shell length.